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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 00:27:08 2001
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From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
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Subject: [TML] Re : Smart Fabrics (longish)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:31:44 +1000
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Wow!
Some comments :-

> All costs, masses and stored volumes listed below are for a full suit
> (for a typical human), or per 1m2 of Smart Fabric
Closer to 2m^2 to cover an adult human (1.7m^2), unless it's stretchy.

The "Rule of 9's" is used to calculate the %age BSA :-
Head and neck 9%
Anterior trunk     2 X 9 = 18%
Posterior trunk    2 X 9 = 18%
Upper limbs        9 each ; hands about 1% per side
Lower limbs        18 each ; feet about 1% per side
Genitalia/perineum 1
There are modifications of this rule for infants.

> Thermo-Electric-9		0.25kg	300Cr	0.25 liter
> Self-heating and -cooling.  Uses between 100 and 1000w,
> depending on conditions, and requires a power source.
Very useful survival product. Seal up the corners, rev it up and use it as a
water heater/desalination rig (among other things).

> Biomonitors-11		0.3kg	400Cr	0.3 litres
> Captures the wearer's body temperature, blood pressure, pulse
> rate, and respiration rate.
Add blood oxygen saturation (pulse oximetry is more useful than
counting resp rate), and a pedometer/calorimeter option for fitness buffs.

> Sound Emitting/Capturing-11	--	200Cr	--
> Can rigidify circular panels which vibrate to produce sound.
Cool product. Some wattages and frequency responses are locked out of cloth
designed to be worn, for safety reasons.

> Photoelectric-12		0.25kg	20Cr	0.25 liter
>	Generates power when exposed to sunlight. Output varies with
> conditions, but assuming an Atmos 6 world, 1AU from a G0v sun: a full
> suit will generate about 100w (250w at TL14).  A 1m2 area entirely
> exposed to the same light will generate about 300w (650w at TL14).
> Even the slightest cloud cover drastically cuts the output. In
> vacuum, will generate at least three times as many watts.
How efficient are TL 14 cells? Do the solar panel numbers come from FF&S?

> Adventure Climber-14	2kg	2000Cr	3 liters
> photoelectric (generates about 250w); sticky-shoes &
> - -gloves.  The glow of your climbing suit will help the rescue teams
> find you when you get stuck half-way up the crater wall.
Assuming that the 250W is all channeled into the glow, it may not be all
that bright (a light bulb has about 2% of your surface area ; how bright is
a 5W bulb?)

The S&R guys will have IR and LI vision anyway, so it might actually be
useful at night, given how LI gear can catch stray photons.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 00:29:47 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:34:29 +1000
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Just checking to see which address to send things to.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 02:24:07 2001
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From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re : Smart Fabrics (longish)
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Robert O'Connor wrote:
> Wow!
> Some comments :-

Me too.

> > Adventure Climber-14	2kg	2000Cr	3 liters
> > photoelectric (generates about 250w); sticky-shoes &
> > - -gloves.  The glow of your climbing suit will help the rescue teams
> > find you when you get stuck half-way up the crater wall.
> Assuming that the 250W is all channeled into the glow, it may not be all
> that bright (a light bulb has about 2% of your surface area ; how bright is
> a 5W bulb?)
> 
> The S&R guys will have IR and LI vision anyway, so it might actually be
> useful at night, given how LI gear can catch stray photons.

A regular light bulb converts only a very low percentage of the power into
light. (Offhand I would say 10%). This is of course the kind of bulb with
a hot wire glowing inside, halogen bulbs have better efficiency. (The
lamps with hydrogen gas inside [can't remember the name of these, they are
the long tubes in every office. B-)] and a glowing material on the inside
of the tube have much better efficieny.)

This means that a regular bulb, which uses 60 or 40 W (the usual values
here) is producing light at just 6 or 4 Watts. 

Still, considering that people might be using these suits while climbing
in mountains, the output power might be a bit small, at least when on snow
on a sunny day. The snow is quite bright. Of course, on could imagine
coloured light, which could be more noticeable.

-- 
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 02:24:36 2001
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unsubscribe

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 04:08:09 2001
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re : Smart Fabrics (longish)
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> lamps with hydrogen gas inside [can't remember the name of these, they are

Argh, make that mercury, not hydrogen.

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 04:48:26 2001
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On Friday, April 13, 2001, at 12:07  pm, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
>> lamps with hydrogen gas inside [can't remember the name of these, they 
>> are
>
> Argh, make that mercury, not hydrogen.

At least the hydrogen ones wouldn't need oxygen. ;-)

- Self-effacing Rob.
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 05:25:59 2001
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Average human male BSA        1.86m^2
Average human female BSA      1.63m^2

(Source: The MacMillan Visual Desk Reference)

Using the average heights (whatever you want to call them, I use Male 1.72 m
Female 1.60 m) you should be able to calculate BSA as a proprtion to the
square of height, factoring in differences for  physique &, endowment.  One
way to calculate these would be to use the standard deviation of the
Strength attribute as a rough metric.



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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 06:21:59 2001
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> >> To wit:  Helpless characters (such as one bound up
> >> tightly with his head on the chopping block) can be
> >> killed in a single round regardless of hit points.  All
> >> the HP in the world aren't going to stop that axe from
> >> severing your head from the rest of your body.
>
> >And I remember when they *added* that rule to D&D. At least
> >5 years after it came out.  (Note:  I started playing with
> >the first *printing* of first edition D&D. Back in 1974)
>
>Same here, but, the group I played with were never adverse
>to changing, or ignoring, rules we didn't think made sense.
>I remember a game early on where one PC attempted to chop of
>the head of a tied and bound enemy and got a very bad roll.
>He said, "You've got to be kidding!"  I said, "No way you
>missed that hit!" and that's when we invented the "coup de
>gras" rule.  I rather suspect that invention was repeated in
>hundreds of groups around the world.  <g>
>
>
>Eris

We just used the *magic axe* that did damage = (hitpoints +1)

Worked every time!

Greg
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 06:50:35 2001
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Did anyone see that news story a couple weeks back
of the new material that was developed for U.S SEALs?

A new laminate design of their wetsuits incorporates
a material with pores that contract on contact with
moisture and expand s as the material dries. When
dry, the pores allow vapor to pass through.

This will allow SEAL teams to stop dragging a dry
set of clothes with them on missions.

Pretty slick!

David Smart
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 07:24:18 2001
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At 08:15 PM 04/12/01 +0100, you wrote:

>I should point out a very important issue here. "Heroes" in the "heroic
>roleplaying" sense are a Hollywood style contrivance. Real life heroes are
>no more than mortal men and women who have courage. Cut them, they still
>bleed. "Heroes" in my games are more like the latter than the former ...

Then D&D is the wrong game for you.  It is geared towards High Epic
Fantasy.. Conan, Elric, Xena, Gor..  Where the hero *can* suffer dozens of
wounds and still have enough energy to sweep the princess off her feet and
carry her out of the dragon's lair.

What you seem to like is low fantasy.  GURPS is excellent for this.
Getting stabbed by a sword is going to *hurt*, and will probably kill you,
no matter who you are.

I've run games with both excruciatingly detailed combat, and ones where the
dice gathered dust while we just extemporized each encounter.  It's all a
matter of taste.

For what it's worth, the d20 system works for epic fantasy.  I'm really not
sure how it will translate to other genres.  That's a disadvantage of
generic systems.  The Hero System is great for playing four-color super
heros, but breaks down when playing normal folk.  GURPS does almost
everything *except* four-color comic book characters very well.

>there's more sense of achievement playing someone who doesn't stand out from
>the crowd, has their failings, but who makes a _difference_ than Captain Zap
>Hazard, the space pirate who *never* misses with his trusty blaster and
>*always* gets the girl or whatever (and yes, one of my players really did
>choose that name :-) ).

As a 20 year Champions player..  I once played a herald of Galactus.  I was
that powerful, but had various reasons not to exercise my full powers.  It
is, once again, a matter of taste.  Sometimes, a cinematic campaign is fun.

Also, look at it this way.. larger than life heroes require larger than
life villains.  Flash Gordon didn't fight the pickpockets of Mongo, he
struggled with Ming himself!  Honor Harrington spent the first four books
of the series with a very powerful enemy, who was a noble and of higher
rank.  (Digression: I would love to see Pavel Young's face if he could be
told of Honor's achievements as of _Ashes of Victory_..  the little shit
would curl up and die.)

>But it *is* forgotten in practice. The DMG may well say everything you
>quoted, I can't verify it because my 1st Ed. is in the loft under piles of
>old gaming stuff ... but no one I know has ever DM'd a game and said "you
>missed your saving throw, you got hit by the rock, let's cut to the chase,
>you're dead.". Instead they've just used the more well-known mechanism -
>"you missed your saving throw, so you take 48 hit points, that takes you
>down to 1, you're barely alive". Why ? Because to kill players in the former
>manner will alienate them, that's why. "Hey, I still have all of my hit
>points ! Surely 67hp counts for something ? I can't be dead !". Rightly or
>wrongly, DMs will give extra chances to players just to avoid this sort of
>argument. I've seen it happen many, many times. Personally, I'd go with the
>former one though - my group has a long list of casualties, but then they
>accept that characters can and do die in my games.

In your experience.  In my experience, DMs had no trouble ruling instant
kills when warranted.  And if players get upset, I usually pointed out that
the instant death scenarios are usually clear marked.  Like the room that
had charred walls and the burnt remains of over a dozen creatures.  In the
center, a pedestal with an open book.  One moron just had to announce he
was going to read the book...

>The difference is that if I have a dex score, it tells me how dextrous I am,
>right ? Then I'd expect my dodge roll to reflect that I am either very
>dextrous or not dextrous at all ... this is a principle of good game design,
>in fact just plain good design - start with one foundation and build up. If
>however I have an arbitrary number which is unaffected by dexterity, why
>have dexterity ? It's orphaned, a cul-de-sac characteristic.

One more time, in d20, your reflex save is *directly* controlled by your
dexterity score.

>What I also said was I liked realistic combat. Well, realistic firearms are
>lethal unless you have body armour, and even then can still cause
>casualties.

Which explains all those Purple Heart winners out there.

Wound modelling, especially in regards to gunshot wounds, is probably the
hardest part of designing a combat system.  I keep a file of weird things
that have happened when bullets meet flesh.  To be brief, even a head shot
at point-blank range from a .45 ACP does not guarantee anything.  The
bullet may bounce off the skull.  It may cleave directly between the two
halves of the brain.  It may shatter the cheekbones, doing massive cosmetic
damage, but leaving the person alive.  Or it may punch straight through the
brain and do nothing more than leave the victim unable to speak.  All of
these happened.

So it isn't fair to state that "realistic firearms are lethal", because in
most cases, they aren't.

>I was not arguing against myself, just sticking to my principle that if you
>are going to simulate something, then simulate it - don't fudge it and make
>it inconsistent, however abstract the simulation may well be. A bullet is
>still a bullet and can kill. Period.

So can rocks, knives, and thrown penguins.

>
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 07:37:02 2001
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Glenn Grant <neo@total.net> wrote:
> Something I wrote up recently for my campaign...

Some excellent material there, Glenn - many thanks! Hope you didn't wear
yourself out writing it.

<plug>
A much more limited version is available from the BITS-canon company
Sylk, who get a write-up in the forthcoming _101 Corporations_
(currently waiting for a gap in Andy Lilly's hectic schedule).
</plug>

John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/



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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 08:43:42 2001
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Message-ID: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB117C@boston.syncata.com>
From: WLane@syncata.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:41:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C430.3AFB35B0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?

thanks

Bill

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C430.3AFB35B0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>Does this work?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>thanks</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C430.3AFB35B0--
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 09:32:54 2001
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From: "Andrew MacLintock" <a_maclintock@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:32:28 -0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F125QoMuDGzxTs53iVd00001880@hotmail.com>
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That's how I got it...

>From: WLane@syncata.com
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:41:39 -0700
>
>Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?
>
>thanks
>
>Bill

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 09:50:06 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:49:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] heroes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20010413072347.006b6058@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10104130944350.7990-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 08:15 PM 04/12/01 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >I should point out a very important issue here. "Heroes" in the "heroic
> >roleplaying" sense are a Hollywood style contrivance. Real life heroes are
> >no more than mortal men and women who have courage. Cut them, they still
> >bleed. "Heroes" in my games are more like the latter than the former ...
> 
> Then D&D is the wrong game for you.  It is geared towards High Epic
> Fantasy.. Conan, Elric, Xena, Gor..  Where the hero *can* suffer dozens of
> wounds and still have enough energy to sweep the princess off her feet and
> carry her out of the dragon's lair.
> 
> What you seem to like is low fantasy.  GURPS is excellent for this.
> Getting stabbed by a sword is going to *hurt*, and will probably kill you,
> no matter who you are.
> 
Actually I think knowing your tastes is THE most important thing for
having fun gaming.  I once was in a game with a guy who insisted we all
start out as peasants, etc.  Sorry, trying to make ends meet with next to
nothing is the story of my real life-- what I game to escape from, hello?

I do not like low fantasy very much nor am I keen on the kind of Trav game
where you are one step ahead of the repo guys.  I am a high-drama kind of
person.  (Some unkind souls have said I'm a drama queen in RL...)  anyhow,
I like high epic fantasy and space opera and I also enjoy hard hard sf,
but I don't like the kind of games that make you live hand to mouth and I
don't like the kind of games where adventure is so deadly you're rolling
up a new character every week.  Although I am pretty good at staying alive
and kept the same character for a year and a half in Call of Cthulhu,
finally retiring her when the rest of the party rebelled against fighting
HER enemies.

> Also, look at it this way.. larger than life heroes require larger than
> life villains.  Flash Gordon didn't fight the pickpockets of Mongo, he
> struggled with Ming himself!  Honor Harrington spent the first four books
> of the series with a very powerful enemy, who was a noble and of higher
> rank.  (Digression: I would love to see Pavel Young's face if he could be
> told of Honor's achievements as of _Ashes of Victory_..  the little shit
> would curl up and die.)

lol!

...realism is overrated.  None is bad, but too much can be even worse.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 09:53:30 2001
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From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
References: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB117C@boston.syncata.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:51:46 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: <WLane@syncata.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 8:41 AM
Subject: [TML] Does this work?


> Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?
>
> thanks
>
> Bill
>
Nope,   MIME-Version: 1.0


Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 10:00:03 2001
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>Received: by krypton.rain.com (rnr)
       via rnr; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:43:39 PST
To: tml@travellercentral.com
X-Original-Article-From: WLane@syncata.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Message-ID: <10413.094339.3c1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:43:39 PST
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Organization: Shadownet
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In mail you write:

Still Mimed HTML.

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C430.3AFB35B0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?
>
> thanks
>
> Bill
>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C430.3AFB35B0
> Content-Type: text/html;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12">
> <TITLE>Does this work?</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?</FONT>
> </P>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>thanks</FONT>
> </P>
>
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Bill</FONT>
> </P>
>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C430.3AFB35B0--
> ----
> The Traveller Mailing List.
> Send email to tml@travellercentral.com
> To unsubscribe from this list, send email to majordomo@travellercentral.com 
> with the words 'unsubscribe tml' or 'unsubscribe tml-digest' in the BODY of 
> the message, or use the web form at http://tml.travellercentral.com.
>
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 10:33:14 2001
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From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:32:42 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F44dpuoRNuzI57OHFE8000019f6@hotmail.com>
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Sender: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
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Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Bill's message showed up as plain text for me also. This has me worried that 
I may not be sending in plain text either. I hope no one is too shy to let 
me (or anyone else)know if their messages contain unnecessary formating 
information.

John

>From: WLane@syncata.com
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Does this work?
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:41:39 -0700
>
>Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?
>
>thanks
>
>Bill

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 10:55:46 2001
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Message-ID: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1184@boston.syncata.com>
From: WLane@syncata.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:53:07 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0C442.988E4480"
Sender: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C442.988E4480
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

John your in plain text. at least to me. which is not saying a heck of a
lot.

what i cant figure out is i am sending in plain text. i have plain texts
selected. some people are getting plain texts others are not. also i appear
to be sending an additional HTML attachment. I can not find an option to
turn this off or stop it. if someone has any ideas what to do it would be
appreciated.

It is not my intention to be spamming the list with useless garbage but at
this moment im at a loss.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:33 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?


Bill's message showed up as plain text for me also. This has me worried that

I may not be sending in plain text either. I hope no one is too shy to let 
me (or anyone else)know if their messages contain unnecessary formating 
information.

John

>From: WLane@syncata.com
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Does this work?
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:41:39 -0700
>
>Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text?
>
>thanks
>
>Bill

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C442.988E4480
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TML] Does this work?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>John your in plain text. at least to me. which is not =
saying a heck of a lot.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>what i cant figure out is i am sending in plain text. =
i have plain texts selected. some people are getting plain texts others =
are not. also i appear to be sending an additional HTML attachment. I =
can not find an option to turn this off or stop it. if someone has any =
ideas what to do it would be appreciated.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It is not my intention to be spamming the list with =
useless garbage but at this moment im at a loss.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: John Lambert [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com">mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:33 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: tml@travellercentral.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bill's message showed up as plain text for me also. =
This has me worried that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I may not be sending in plain text either. I hope no =
one is too shy to let </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>me (or anyone else)know if their messages contain =
unnecessary formating </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>information.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>John</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;From: WLane@syncata.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;To: tml@travellercentral.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Subject: [TML] Does this work?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:41:39 -0700</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain =
text?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;thanks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Bill</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>_______________________________________________________________=
__</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A =
HREF=3D"http://explorer.msn.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://explorer.msn.com</A></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Traveller Mailing List.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Send email to tml@travellercentral.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To unsubscribe from this list, send email to =
majordomo@travellercentral.com with the words 'unsubscribe tml' or =
'unsubscribe tml-digest' in the BODY of the message, or use the web =
form at <A HREF=3D"http://tml.travellercentral.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://tml.travellercentral.com</A>.</FONT></P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:04:19 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:04:08 -0700
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
References: <F44dpuoRNuzI57OHFE8000019f6@hotmail.com>
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John Lambert wrote:


> Bill's message showed up as plain text for me also. This has me worried 
> that I may not be sending in plain text either. I hope no one is too shy 
> to let me (or anyone else)know if their messages contain unnecessary 
> formating information.
>

Like many people, when you get a mime-html message like Bills, and reply 
to it, you mailer sends it back in the same format.

Thihs is likely in a preferences setting somewhere.

While I'm at it, I just found the absolutely coolest setting in Mozilla. 
(many prefs screens in Mozilla display weirdly on my PeeCee, such as not 
showing the entire window AND not showing a scrollbar...)

But it allows you to set entire domains as HTML or plain text only. I 
just set travellercentral.com as PTO, and now I should never inflict a 
non-text message on anyone on the list.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:11:34 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:11:13 -0500
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Message-id: <3AD74141.6D9C2F18@pcola.gulf.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U)
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John and Bill,

Look at the header of one of your messages. If it is being sent in MIME
then it really isn't plain text.

This is a portion of one of Bill's message headers...

- MIME-Version: 1.0
- X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
- Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
- boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0C442.988E4480"

If they were really "plain text" I think the Content-Type would be
something like "text/plain; charset=US-ASCII"

I'm at work and using Netscape, so both your stuff shows up as text, but
that "alternative" part is still probably html *and* an extra hunk of
bytes that you don't really need to send.  As for how you turn it
off....beats me...but I'm sure somebody here knows.

Eris
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:24:39 2001
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Message-ID: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1187@boston.syncata.com>
From: WLane@syncata.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:23:24 -0700
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
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Ok im not sure what to do. i dont get any HTML attachments on either a
hotmail account or an netaddress account. my IS guys are stumped at this
point. I have plain text selected. I even chose plain text for this reply in
the format section of the tool bar.

However i know john fox is recieving HTML attachments.

anyway i am trying to figure this out.

Thanks Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: WLane@syncata.com [mailto:WLane@syncata.com]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:53 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Does this work?


John your in plain text. at least to me. which is not saying a heck of a
lot. 
what i cant figure out is i am sending in plain text. i have plain texts
selected. some people are getting plain texts others are not. also i appear
to be sending an additional HTML attachment. I can not find an option to
turn this off or stop it. if someone has any ideas what to do it would be
appreciated.
It is not my intention to be spamming the list with useless garbage but at
this moment im at a loss. 
Bill 
-----Original Message----- 
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:33 AM 
To: tml@travellercentral.com 
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work? 


Bill's message showed up as plain text for me also. This has me worried that

I may not be sending in plain text either. I hope no one is too shy to let 
me (or anyone else)know if their messages contain unnecessary formating 
information. 
John 
>From: WLane@syncata.com 
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>Subject: [TML] Does this work? 
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:41:39 -0700 
> 
>Can someone tell me if this is sending in plain text? 
> 
>thanks 
> 
>Bill 
_________________________________________________________________ 
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com 
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:42:05 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:41:26 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Message-ID: <20010413124126.A7168@4dv.net>
References: <F44dpuoRNuzI57OHFE8000019f6@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i
In-Reply-To: <F44dpuoRNuzI57OHFE8000019f6@hotmail.com>; from hovtej@hotmail.com on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:32:42PM +0000
Sender: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 05:32:42PM +0000, John Lambert wrote:
> Bill's message showed up as plain text for me also. This has me worried that 
> I may not be sending in plain text either. I hope no one is too shy to let 
> me (or anyone else)know if their messages contain unnecessary formating 
> information.

It's important to note that the mere presence of a MIME-Version:
header does not necessarily indicate that one's messages are not plain
text.  Lambert's, for example, was a MIME message of one part with
type text/plain; so there is no problem.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

Upgrading your OS and not needing to upgrade your hardware is a great
feeling.                                             --Patrick Mullen

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:42:24 2001
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Message-ID: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1189@boston.syncata.com>
From: WLane@syncata.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Found the problem...
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:41:23 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0C449.56DA07C0"
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Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C449.56DA07C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Ok im going to have to switch email addresses for this. Evedentally the
Owner of the company has set some sort of server side thing up so that they
send this stuff out with this MIME-1.0 so he can have his special signiture.


Sort of screwed up really. so even though i send out a plain text email the
server is converting it. cant be changed. so ill need to figure out how to
get my downport.com email to work.

Again I appologise for spamming the list. was not my intention to ever do
that.

hasta

Bill

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C449.56DA07C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>Found the problem...</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ok im going to have to switch email addresses for =
this. Evedentally the Owner of the company has set some sort of server =
side thing up so that they send this stuff out with this MIME-1.0 so he =
can have his special signiture. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sort of screwed up really. so even though i send out =
a plain text email the server is converting it. cant be changed. so ill =
need to figure out how to get my downport.com email to work.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Again I appologise for spamming the list. was not my =
intention to ever do that.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>hasta</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C449.56DA07C0--
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:44:57 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:44:29 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Message-ID: <20010413124429.B7168@4dv.net>
References: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1184@boston.syncata.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i
In-Reply-To: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1184@boston.syncata.com>; from WLane@syncata.com on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:53:07AM -0700
Sender: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 10:53:07AM -0700, WLane@syncata.com wrote:
> 
> what i cant figure out is i am sending in plain text. i have plain texts
> selected. some people are getting plain texts others are not. also i appear
> to be sending an additional HTML attachment. I can not find an option to
> turn this off or stop it. if someone has any ideas what to do it would be
> appreciated.

You are sending a two-part MIME message.  The first part is
text/plain; the second text/html.  The second is an alternative to the
first, and is thus ignored by most MIME-compatible mail readers;
MIME-incompatible readers (which _should_ be few and far between these
days, but are not) will display your text message followed by and HTML
message.  While this is slightly annoying, and does lead to an
expansion in message size, I do not think it is over-harmful.

I've sent this to the entire list 'cause I though some might find it
of note.  My apologies to those who do not.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

`What would you do if you won $1,000,000?'
`Well, I guess I'd spend the first $900,000 on women and beer, then just
waste the rest.'

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 11:48:19 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:47:56 -0600
From: "Robert A. Uhl" <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Message-ID: <20010413124756.C7168@4dv.net>
References: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1187@boston.syncata.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i
In-Reply-To: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1187@boston.syncata.com>; from WLane@syncata.com on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:23:24AM -0700
Sender: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:23:24AM -0700, WLane@syncata.com wrote:
> Ok im not sure what to do. i dont get any HTML attachments on either a
> hotmail account or an netaddress account. my IS guys are stumped at this
> point. I have plain text selected. I even chose plain text for this reply in
> the format section of the tool bar.

This message was sent as plain text alone.  It was not even sent as a
single-part MIME message, which would have been effectively the same.
Can you make that setting the default?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

The aggressor is a man of peace.  He wants nothing more than to march
into a neighbouring country unresisted.                  --Clausewitz

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 12:42:15 2001
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Message-ID: <004a01c0c451$944ddde0$1300a8c0@clanr031.com>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
References: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB1187@boston.syncata.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:40:22 -0700
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
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Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


> Ok im not sure what to do. i dont get any HTML attachments on either a
> hotmail account or an netaddress account. my IS guys are stumped at this
> point. I have plain text selected. I even chose plain text for this reply
in
> the format section of the tool bar.
>
> However i know john fox is recieving HTML attachments.
>
> anyway i am trying to figure this out.
>
> Thanks Bill
>

OK, something changed.  I got this one as plain text.  Congrats!


Pronto
AKA  Brian Taylor


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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 12:42:17 2001
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Message-ID: <188B2A280849D411B42E00508B8B0665BB118B@boston.syncata.com>
From: WLane@syncata.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Does this work?
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:40:59 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0C451.AA522880"
Sender: owner-tml@travellercentral.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C451.AA522880
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Robert,

On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:23:24AM -0700, WLane@syncata.com wrote:
>> Ok im not sure what to do. i dont get any HTML attachments on either a
>> hotmail account or an netaddress account. my IS guys are stumped at this
>> point. I have plain text selected. I even chose plain text for this reply
in
>> the format section of the tool bar.

>This message was sent as plain text alone.  It was not even sent as a
>single-part MIME message, which would have been effectively the same.
>Can you make that setting the default?

I went into the Format and made sure plain text was selected. So in my
options the default is set to Plain Text. then when i hit reply i went to
format and hit plain text also. once this was done i then typed message and
sent.

Let me know what happens. John Fox says that when im sending via the mailing
list he does not get a html attachment but when i send strait to him he gets
the html attachment.

It might be just easier to find a shareware/freeware mail program and set it
up to go across downport.com than to keep hassling with this and making
people mad at me 8(

Hasta

Bill

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C451.AA522880
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [TML] Does this work?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Robert,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:23:24AM -0700, =
WLane@syncata.com wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt; Ok im not sure what to do. i dont get any =
HTML attachments on either a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt; hotmail account or an netaddress account. =
my IS guys are stumped at this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt; point. I have plain text selected. I even =
chose plain text for this reply in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&gt; the format section of the tool bar.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;This message was sent as plain text alone.&nbsp; =
It was not even sent as a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;single-part MIME message, which would have been =
effectively the same.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Can you make that setting the default?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I went into the Format and made sure plain text was =
selected. So in my options the default is set to Plain Text. then when =
i hit reply i went to format and hit plain text also. once this was =
done i then typed message and sent.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Let me know what happens. John Fox says that when im =
sending via the mailing list he does not get a html attachment but when =
i send strait to him he gets the html attachment.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It might be just easier to find a shareware/freeware =
mail program and set it up to go across downport.com than to keep =
hassling with this and making people mad at me 8(</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hasta</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C451.AA522880--
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 12:42:18 2001
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From: "Andy Brick" <andy@exeus.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] heroes
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:41:26 +0100
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEKFCDAA.andy@exeus.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
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Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello,

> Sorry, trying to make ends meet with next to
> nothing is the story of my real life-- what I game to escape from, hello?

Ah well, there you go, you see.

Since I'm living such an epic life, full of excitement, intrigue, passionate
encounters, foes that I always manage to overcome no matter what the odds,
smart one liners, no need even for a band aid, I enjoy playing a humdrum
mundane person to relax <grin> :-)

But I digress; Enough about me. Back to your email.

> ...realism is overrated.  None is bad, but too much can be even worse.

Yeah, but space opera can become dull after a while. Just imagine the
following rather extreme version of events -

Ref : "Ok guys, you have to just destroy the Death Star using this crossbow
and sixty yards of dental floss. In the dark. And did I mention the first
Imperial fleet just jumped in from Sylea ? - oh, and one last thing, your
death ray is broken."

Player 1 : "Er - didn't we do that last week ? Or was that the one where we
singlehandly defeated the Zyxaxxian Invasion fleet using that experimental
ship we stole with the gun that fired singularities ?"

Player 2 : "Yeah - I took a direct hit. Good job I took Medic-1 or I'd have
been toast."

Player 3 : "Nah, you're both wrong. Last week was the one where we rescued
Princess Ululu from the rebels on Pakakia, remember ? We took on the whole
horde armed just with fruit knives ? "

Player 1&2 : "No ?

Player 3 : "Then the palace caught fire and we made our escape using the
ornithopter that we constructed using J-o-T-10 and the furniture in the
Princess's bedroom ?"

Player 1&2 : "Still doesn't ring any bells".

Player 3 : "You were both wearing your favourite blue sweaters."

Player 1&2 : "Ahhhhh ! Got it !!"

--

Over the top ? Sure, but the point is still valid.

Seriously though, there is often a requirement of space opera to dream up
better bad guys, bigger death stations, more impossible situations, tighter
escapes, what have you.

Yawn.

Give me serious character development, mature issues, a darker and moodier
theme, undiluted human nature, a story arc across many scenarios rather than
episodic content, and to top it all off, atmosphere. Make it gritty, make it
real but with just a dash of the dramatic, the adventurous, and count me in.

And yes, I do prefer Bladerunner, Outland, and Alien/Aliens, to Star Wars,
Star Trek and Babylon 5 (though Babylon 5 did have a few redeeming moments,
to be fair). I also prefer William Gibson to Iain Banks. But that's my
preference.

Sure, no one wants to emulate real life. But then, surely no one wants to
face impossible odds _every day_ either. I'd bet it's just as dull ...

BTW : Your Cthulhu character lasted over a year ? Sane ? Either you ran
faster than the rest of them, played a blind character, or something was
very, very wrong with the game. In my experience, six, maybe seven scenarios
in, and your character is seriously deranged, mangled, dead, whatever.
Probably all three.

Regards

Andy

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 12:45:42 2001
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To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re : Smart Fabrics (longish)
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> Average human male BSA        1.86m^2
> Average human female BSA      1.63m^2
>
> (Source: The MacMillan Visual Desk Reference)
>
> Using the average heights (whatever you want to call them, I use Male 1.72 m
> Female 1.60 m) you should be able to calculate BSA as a proprtion to the
> square of height, factoring in differences for  physique &, endowment.  One
> way to calculate these would be to use the standard deviation of the
> Strength attribute as a rough metric.

The formula I use at work for this is:

    BSA = W^0.425 X H^0.725 X 0.007184

W is weight in kg, H is height in cm.  Gives BSA in m^2.

(ref: Du Bois & Du Bois, Arch. Intern. Med. 17, p 863, 1916)

This is probably totally useless info, but someone may find it helpful.

-- 
Shane Thomas
Oxford, UK



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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 13:44:19 2001
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From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Smart Fabrics
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:37:57 -0400
Organization: None To Speak Of
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On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:44:54 -0700 (PDT), Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
wrote:

>Tod G. sez,

>>I hope this is posted on the web somewhere
>>[snip]
>>  > --------------------
>>  > Smart Fabrics
>>  > -------------

>Hey, Jeff Z. -- do you want to put this up at Trav Central?  Let me 
>know if you need me to e-mail you a copy.

Trav Central isn't me; Freelance Traveller is.  And yes, I'd like to put it
there <giggling>.

This message of yours appeared in the same digest as mine to you asking if
I could!

>BTW, any of these "=A0" things should be deleted from the text. 
>They're typos that appear to have been inserted by Eudora.
>

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 16:46:22 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:35:06 -0700
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] heroes
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At 09:49 AM 04/13/01 -0700, you wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Douglas Berry wrote:

>> What you seem to like is low fantasy.  GURPS is excellent for this.
>> Getting stabbed by a sword is going to *hurt*, and will probably kill you,
>> no matter who you are.
>> 
>Actually I think knowing your tastes is THE most important thing for
>having fun gaming.  I once was in a game with a guy who insisted we all
>start out as peasants, etc.  Sorry, trying to make ends meet with next to
>nothing is the story of my real life-- what I game to escape from, hello?

True, and depended upon my mood, I can play to either field (quiet Kiri!)
Sometimes I like a gritty, hard-reality game.  Then I like to be Jason
Starkiller of the Galactic Patrol (cue fanfare)

>I do not like low fantasy very much nor am I keen on the kind of Trav game
>where you are one step ahead of the repo guys.  I am a high-drama kind of
>person.  (Some unkind souls have said I'm a drama queen in RL...)  anyhow,
>I like high epic fantasy and space opera and I also enjoy hard hard sf,
>but I don't like the kind of games that make you live hand to mouth and I
>don't like the kind of games where adventure is so deadly you're rolling
>up a new character every week.  Although I am pretty good at staying alive
>and kept the same character for a year and a half in Call of Cthulhu,
>finally retiring her when the rest of the party rebelled against fighting
>HER enemies.

I think you are really going to like the D&D3 campaign I'm working on... :)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 17:34:12 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:33:32 -0700
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From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: [TML] Filk:  Opportunities
Cc: "Kirsten M. Berry" <kshandra@mindspring.com>
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Opportunities

Ttto: Opportunities (by the Pet Shop Boys)


Chorus:
I've got the ship
You've got the guns
Let's make lots of money
You've got the pull
I've got the crew
Let's make lots of

I'm tired of hauling cargo and never breaking clear
I'm sick of whiny passengers shouting in my ear
I've found myself a patron, who needs a job done fast
Listen to my offer if you're interested in cash

Chorus

Smuggling is an option; piracy is too
If you were in my seat, which one would you choose?
The bank is looking for me; the repo men close in
I've been playing by their rules too long, now I play to win

Oh, there are lots of opportunities, if you know how to take them
Oh, there are lots of opportunities, if you know how to take them
If you take them

Chorus

Money

Lets make lots of money

Now they call me outlaw, I'm living on the run
Do I regret my choices?  Hell no I'm having fun
You can keep your laws and ethics; at last I'm living free
So ask yourself this question if you want to follow me

Chorus



--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 18:11:58 2001
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From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:22:19 PST
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In mail you write:

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0C442.988E4480
> Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> John your in plain text. at least to me. which is not saying a heck of a
> lot.
>
> what i cant figure out is i am sending in plain text. i have plain texts
> selected. some people are getting plain texts others are not. also i appear
> to be sending an additional HTML attachment. I can not find an option to
> turn this off or stop it. if someone has any ideas what to do it would be
> appreciated.

And this message had the MIME'd HTML attachment.

But I notice that the HTML part hard a lot *more* stuff than the plain
text part. By any chance does your mail program (what *are* you using,
anyway?) have an option to "quote as attachment"? Or anything like
that? Because *that* could do it...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 18:11:58 2001
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From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:20:40 PST
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In mail you write:

> Ok im not sure what to do. i dont get any HTML attachments on either a
> hotmail account or an netaddress account. my IS guys are stumped at this
> point. I have plain text selected. I even chose plain text for this reply in
> the format section of the tool bar.

*This* message *is* in plain text.

As I recall, at least one mail reader (AOL?) you have to select "plain
text" EVERY TIME you write a message. There's no way to make it the
default. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 19:17:56 2001
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:16:02 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: [TML] Re : Smart Fabrics (longish)
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Rob and Mikko: Thanks for the comments.

Rob O'Connor said,
>  > All costs, masses and stored volumes listed below are for a full suit
>>  (for a typical human), or per 1m2 of Smart Fabric
>Closer to 2m^2 to cover an adult human (1.7m^2), unless it's stretchy.

Quite right.  What was  I thinking?  If I'd thought about it for a 
moment I'd have realized that 1m2 is too small by half.

Ah, I think I see what happened: I was basing this on Greg Porter's 
"Armor Notes" in CSC (pg 14), where he suggests a rough figure of 1m3 
for the *volume* of an adult human.  Reading this late at night, I 
must have  garbled it as a 1m2 figure for *surface area*.

So I'm going to have to go back and fix some of the figures.  Some 
price and mass figures were based on 1m2 area, and others were based 
on figures for a full suit.  And many numbers were pulled out thin 
air (using the ever-popular "That Looks About Right" system).

ATTN: Jeff Zeitlin:  I'll do a rewrite and send it to you; so anybody 
who wants the bug-squashed version can find it next time you do an 
update to Trav Central.

I'll probably list the mass and price for 1m2, and suggest doubling 
these figures for a full suit.

>The "Rule of 9's" is used to calculate the %age BSA :-
>Head and neck 9%
[etc. snipped]
>Genitalia/perineum 1

Great, now I know how much fabric is needed for a codpiece!

Thanks for the figures; will come in handy.

>  > Thermo-Electric-9		0.25kg	300Cr	0.25 liter
>>  Self-heating and -cooling.  Uses between 100 and 1000w,
>>  depending on conditions, and requires a power source.
>  >
>Very useful survival product. Seal up the corners, rev it up and use it as a
>water heater/desalination rig (among other things).

This is based on Porter's "Thermosuit" from CSC (pg 14-15) -- 
although I now note that his price for the suit is 1000Cr.  When and 
why did I change that, I wonder?

>  > Biomonitors-11		0.3kg	400Cr	0.3 litres
>>  Captures the wearer's body temperature, blood pressure, pulse
>>  rate, and respiration rate.
>  >
>Add blood oxygen saturation (pulse oximetry is more useful than
>counting resp rate), and a pedometer/calorimeter option for fitness buffs.

Okay, perfect.  But I'm curious; how do you measure blood oxygen 
saturation with a sensor worn outside the body? (I know next to 
nothing about medical technology.)

>  > Sound Emitting/Capturing-11	--	200Cr	--
>>  Can rigidify circular panels which vibrate to produce sound.
>  >
>Cool product. Some wattages and frequency responses are locked out of cloth
>designed to be worn, for safety reasons.

Let's hope so!

>  > Photoelectric-12		0.25kg	20Cr	0.25 liter
>>	Generates power when exposed to sunlight. Output varies with
>>  conditions, but assuming an Atmos 6 world, 1AU from a G0v sun: a full
>>  suit will generate about 100w (250w at TL14).  A 1m2 area entirely
>>  exposed to the same light will generate about 300w (650w at TL14).
>>  Even the slightest cloud cover drastically cuts the output. In
>>  vacuum, will generate at least three times as many watts.
>  >
>How efficient are TL 14 cells? Do the solar panel numbers come from FF&S?

I think I started with Porter's figures in his Vehicle Design system 
from page 60 of CSC (it's a partial version of FF&S, modified for 
T4).  But CSC only goes up to TL12 -- in fact only up to TL11 for 
photovoltaics; so I extrapolated the figures for TL14 .  (TSAR system 
again.)  I guessed -- perhaps wrongly? -- that only about a third of 
a suit will be in direct sunlight, on average.

Actually, his figures for photovoltaics on page 60 say that a 12m 
area generates .004Mw, at TL11+.  That's 333w per square meter.  But 
he doesn't say whether that's in atmosphere or in vacuum.  (I must 
have assumed the former.)

Then again, Porter also writes (CSC pg 14), under EVA-14, "The outer 
surface of the suit provides photovoltaic power equal to 200 watts in 
the habitable zone, capable of powering the suit at low levels 
indefinitely."  Hmmm.  Let's assume the EVA-14 has a surface area of, 
what? 3m2?  I'll use my one-third-in-sunlight guesstimate, and get an 
exposed area of 1m2.  Which, using page 60, should generate 333w (at 
TL11).  I wonder how he arrived at 200 watts?

But from this I can infer that his page 60 figures are probably for 
vacuum. I assume that in atmosphere the efficiency would be cut by at 
least a third.  Am I guessing wrong?

>  > Adventure Climber-14	2kg	2000Cr	3 liters
>>  photoelectric (generates about 250w); sticky-shoes &
>>  - -gloves.  The glow of your climbing suit will help the rescue teams
>  > find you when you get stuck half-way up the crater wall.
>  >
>  > Assuming that the 250W is all channeled into the glow, it may not be all
>that bright (a light bulb has about 2% of your surface area ; how bright is
>a 5W bulb?)

Ah, but if you're in sunlight, and thus generating power, presumably 
you don't need to glow.  The photovoltaics are only there to recharge 
your batteries, which you use at night, when glowing is much more 
useful!

Thanks for the comments, guys.  I'll get around to doing a rewrite soonish.

Best,

  +GMG+
-- 
           Glenn Grant
          neo@total.net
     "Hell is Other Robots."
- Robot Hell Brochure, Futurama
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From owner-tml@travellercentral.com Fri Apr 13 20:19:59 2001
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Subject: [TML] Re : Smart Fabrics (longish)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 13:24:34 +1000
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"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" wrote :-
> A regular light bulb converts only a very low percentage of the power
> into light. (Offhand I would say 10%).
You're right. Most of the power is going to be radiated off in the IR from
good old resistive (Joule) heating. 10% is a good estimate.

OK, so we're looking at 4-10W for common household globes used as lighting
sources (what's on offer at the supermarket here). The cloth's power
consumption looks a bit excessive.

> Still, considering that people might be using these suits while
> climbing in mountains, the output power might be a bit small, at
> least when on snow on a sunny day.
You're better off using the thermal cloth and relying on IR contrast for
search and rescue ; it may also prevent hypothermia. I agree about the use
of coloured light - but then why not have Day-Glo coloured clothing to begin
with (sufficient contrast during the day, rely on IR effects at night).

The warming-cooling cloth is very useful. A cloth esky for the beer you're
taking on that hike, which can be turned into a water heater for the odd cup
of tea at trail's end...

Dan Lane wrote :-
> Using the average heights (whatever you want to call them, I use Male 1.72
m
> Female 1.60 m) you should be able to calculate BSA as a proprtion to the
> square of height,

Body Surface Area = 0.007184 X (W^0.425) X (H^0.725)
where W is mass in kg, H height in cm

50th centile for adult humans (Pharmacia Growth Services, 1993) :-
males 176 cm, 69kg ; BSA 1.84m^2
females 164cm, 57kg ; BSA 1.62m^2

3d centile
M 165cm, 52kg
F 152cm, 43kg

97th centile
M 189cm, 96kg
F 175cm, 80kg

I'd use the weight and height formulae in TNE as a crude guide. Endurance
and Dexterity/Agility should influence weight/height as well, if you're a
completist.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

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